A model at the recent Orthodox fashion show hosted by Fr Vsevolod Chaplin…
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Dress codes, staging Orthodox fashion shows, discussion clubs… today, Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin, the chairman of the MP Department for Church and Society, sets the agenda in the media. Virtually no week is complete without a new controversial discussion from him. Does this pose a problem for Fr Vsevolod’s work? If so, why? Today, what questions concern him the most? Anna Danilova, the Chief Editor of Pravmir, had a discussion with Fr Vsevolod on this and more.
In 2009, the MP founded the MP Department for Church and Society, as it saw a growing need to develop, improve, and systematise the dialogue between Church and society. This office has the responsibility of implementing relationships with legislative bodies, political parties, professional and creative unions, and other civil bodies on the canonical territory of the Patriarchate of Moscow and all the Russias.
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Anna Danilova
Fr Vsevolod, in the past few months you’ve dominated the discussion and set the majority of the religious agenda. A lot of criticism, tumultuous debate… what do you think of this active engagement with the media? Why did you choose exactly those topics… dress codes, Orthodox nightclubs, clergy salaries?
Archpriest Vsevolod Chaplin
Firstly, some 80 percent of my working life is bureaucratic work associated with negotiations with the state, working with documents. After all that, if I have any time left for public discourse, well, it’s a miracle! I try to limit the number of such statements in any given period, because I don’t want to become a showman, I’m not a squawking parrot, and if some want to make me into a prophet, well, that won’t work, it’ll come to nothing. My colleagues and I have to speak on many different occasions on many different topics, such as the Forest Code, dress codes, electronic documents, and the law on abortion. Nevertheless, of course, journalists like it when you can make it colourful and witty, there’s no getting around that.
Anna Danilova
Can you predict what the next controversial topic for you will be?
Fr Vsevolod
Oh, that one’s an easy pick… it’ll be the gay pride parade. After all, it’s clear that there are two mutually exclusive positions… the supporters of the gay pride parade insist that it must go on, but most people believe otherwise, especially if we’re talking of Orthodox Christians. Understandably, many media sorts think that the gay pride parade, dress codes, or nightclubs are more interesting than questions of law or Church-state relations. However, I must speak on the “boring” topics, too.
The question of how people should appear in society is one of the issues on which there’s a borderline between what we considered the norm for centuries, and what some tried to impose as a norm in the ‘90s. Many people who don’t comprehend the abstract reasoning behind the formulation, “What is good? What is bad?” can understand it at the level of simple examples… “Can you go out on the street half-naked with a can of beer, or not?” In the same way, you can promote homosexuality through lessons to children and adolescents, or not. Such simple and sensitive issues are relevant to most of our contemporaries.
Moreover, we must bear in mind that we must perceive Orthodoxy as a phenomenon that’s not outside our ordinary life; it’s the basis of the people’s life, as most people are tied to the Church through baptism. Hence, we must raise the question of what’s normal for us as Orthodox. We must pose the question of what a powerful Orthodox presence in society means for our lifestyle, which includes everything… the public interaction between people, acts of charity, building relationships within the family and other sub-societal groups, rules of behaviour, and our perception of various vices. Many people still think that this is a daunting topic to speak upon, but I say it’s NOT! Society must be one and united, and if we don’t set ourselves the task to change society, then, we’re going to settle for peanuts. We’ll remain in a slightly improved Soviet reality, or in a Westernised reality, which we won’t control. Therefore, we must approach the state of society, including its morality, with all boldness, not with fear, and certainly not with the bootless evasion, “It’s none of my business”.
Anna Danilova
What are your impressions of the Orthodox fashion show? It was all very interesting; did you see that a black man was one of the models showing off the clothes?
Fr Vsevolod
That was one of the parts of the show that I liked the best!
Anna Danilova
Really?!
Fr Vsevolod
Of course, his clothing was creative and original, but I’m fundamentally opposed to having the so-called “Russian style” confused with decency in dress. Orthodox clothing should be in different styles for business, for leisure wear, etc. In any case, the more national cultures that we’ll be able to absorb it into this style is all for the better. I didn’t like some of the tunics and other Russian exotica, although you can have them if you like them. Some of the models in the show were black, and, in this, I don’t see anything wrong, although, in general, you could criticise the suit that [a black model] was wearing. At this event, I liked the collection of smartly-styled business wear; I don’t know what you’d call them. The most interesting were the futbolki {literally, “football shirts”, T-shirts: editor} modelled by members of one of the Orthodox youth organisations, they had diagonal lettering and symbols.
Anna Danilova
What do you think is the result of all these past discussions? For example, after your statement about nightclubs, do you believe that anyone will run them differently?
Fr Vsevolod
I know of a few projects that are nightclubs without stripteases and drugs, Orthodox Christians are the brains behind them. It’s unlikely that we’ll “reform” those who run clubs where there’s striptease and there’s drugs. You just need to pass laws to close them, especially where they sell drugs. We should make it a crime, which would mean a quick end to such establishments. However, what I suggest is real; it exists now. Let me give you an example, there’s a place called “OGI”, you can buy and discuss books, talk on serious topics, listen to interesting artists, and read poetry. Incidentally, it’s open at 2 and 3 {02.00 and 03.00: editor}, and it stays open until 5 am in the morning. Yes, they sell alcohol, you can sometimes find drunken people there, but according to my way of thinking, there should be some restriction on the how much you can drink. There are other good examples… Православное кафе (Pravoslavnoe Kafe : Orthodox Cafe) and a Catholic club, Покровские ворота (Pokrovskie Vorota : Pokrovsky Gates).
Anna Danilova
A night club… isn’t that kind of late for that sort of thing?
Fr Vsevolod
We must keep in mind that many young people in the big city do not go to bed until 3-4 at night. When I was 15 to 16 years-old, before the Metro closed for the night, I often walked through the centre of Moscow with other young Christians… we didn’t drink any booze, we didn’t go to the strip joints, but we weren’t bored at all, we discussed the life of the Church and the life of the country. Of course, we criticised the Soviet regime, but only its more extreme manifestations.
When I asked a friend of mine, a Catholic priest, what’s popular amongst young people, as he saw it, he told me the following, “I left the church open until late at night”. Obviously, the rhythm of life in most Moscow parishes doesn’t coincide with the rhythm of the lives of young people, who begin their activity at 18.00 to 19.00, when most churches are closed, and they finish it after midnight, although most of them aren’t alcoholics, drug addicts, and libertines. I’m sure that they’re interested in other places than just those where you can get drugs, alcohol, or engage in debauchery.
We have an active discussion on good taste in dress, and this suggests that this stings the conscience of some people to the quick. It struck me that about half the audience of liberal {“conservative” in American terms: editor} media fully support a conservative approach. People with experience in life confirm that lewd behaviour, including that expressed by clothing, leads one to disaster. A flurry of hysteria is predictable, but it seems to me that arguments based upon the experience of those with whom this misfortune had happened are very persuasive.
Anna Danilova
Now, if you take a quick look at what issues the media discusses related to the Church, it turns out that the Church is all about night clubs, a dress code, clergy living it up, and that the Chernobyl disaster was a punishment for sin. That’s it; it’s only some 4-5 topics. What do you think of this situation, when we see our presence in the media reduced to minor issues, where no one remembers that the church is actually about Christ?
Fr Vsevolod
It’s all about Christ. As with propriety in dress, it’s no coincidence that mentioning Chernobyl troubles some people. They reveal hidden abscesses in their conscience. Yes, the Forest Care Law excites fewer people than abortion or a dress code, including those who shy away from politics. If we look at history, maybe, there never was a time when abstract theological arguments attracted many listeners. People worried about the economy, politics, and culture, and, in all these areas, there was, and is, a struggle between good and evil. If we ignore this struggle, we’re being penny-wise and pound-foolish.
The more time passed, bombastic and dense language spoken unctuously in an overly hectoring tone was mistaken in Soviet and post-Soviet times as the “Church Style”. The real Church style comes from the Apostles and St John Chrysostom; you see it in His Holiness Patriarch Kirill’s usage, in which, although it’s very clear and positive, he says challenging things. His sermon on the Chernobyl disaster is a vivid example of how one shouldn’t be afraid to denounce the evil in people, even society as a whole. We can and should expose the doings of politicians and big business, but we should also hold up society, as a whole. It’s correct; the Lord Jesus Christ did so. Someone should write an article on how often contemporary culture incorrectly interprets Christ, including Church circles. Yes, He’s our Merciful Father, but at the same time, He’s our Demanding Sovereign, the Righteous Judge, the King of Kings, the Divine Revelator of every Evil and Injustice. Today, soon, “Jews and Greeks” will begin to demand that we recognise that some of His words are extreme or that we should delete them from the Bible due to their political incorrectness. Christ calls people to live in Him, and He declares that every lie, every error, and every sin is worthy of eternal damnation. For us, today, it’s very important to be in touch with reality, and not make a customised Christ for ourselves, or be afraid of those whom His teachings annoy, or give them the direction of mankind’s life.
Anna Danilova
Let’s return to the media’s agenda… sober nightclubs, a correct dress code, the income of the clergy. Today, who says anything about the need to repent of sin, the need to heed the voice of your conscience, or that you don’t need to follow another’s example. From whom should these words come from?
Fr Vsevolod
Every priest and every lay person should do their part, and you can use a variety of topics. Use every opportunity… corruption, pandemics, natural disasters, immorality, selfishness, the loneliness felt by a huge number of people… talk about them without condemning others for sinful attitudes, do it without trying to suck up to others, and, God willing, people will hear you. All of us must step up to the mark and say what we know… all priests, all lay people, especially those with expertise in a given area… physicians, writers, artists, soldiers, economists, politicians, amongst others. We should have more talk about what’s good and what’s bad.
Anna Danilova
Why is there so little real discussion of the pressing issues of society? It’s clear that fashion starred in the lively debate last week, and the world’s attention was riveted on the royal wedding, we even forgot Fukushima, but the fact is that even though billions watched the wedding, that didn’t make this event serious and meaningful. Why do we ignore the real problems of society… the crisis in the unravelling of our healthcare, educational, and scientific establishments, the acute predicament of immigration, and the problem of drug addiction?
Fr Vsevolod
People have an interest in the eye-catching phenomena of life and culture; it’s always been so. More people care about the result of tomorrow’s World Cup hockey championship… whether the Americans will whip the Russians, or vice versa… than do those who care about world politics and economics. That’s the way of it for most folks, whether we like it or not. In assessing social and economic trends, we have to put many things in the balance.
Yes, the new educational standards met criticism from many quarters. Yes, we need to change many things. Yet, the old Soviet model isn’t an option, I remember it very well, and I know that we protested against it not only because of its ideology, but due to the fact that it stamped limits upon a child’s knowledge, leading to people who haven’t recovered yet. Today, the battle over education pits two educational bureaucracies… the old, and the new, and both have strong claims. Constantly, I’m speaking on education in different fora.
What does it mean that our healthcare system is falling apart? Yes, we have an uneasy dialogue with the Ministry of Health, in response to complaints from Chernobyl first-responders in connection with the establishment of electronic charts, due to the nature of our health insurance. Reforming health care shouldn’t be to the disadvantage of people. However, the old system of medical care is far from perfect. We see crowded public hospitals and clinics, often people are treated like pigs, and these institutions are only formally without fees. Such institutions need to drastically change. We’re looking for a new system, but we’ve made some mistakes, but the errors are obvious. We have to discuss this subject, but we shouldn’t empower those who currently say, “Golikova {Tatiana Golikova is the current Minister of Health: editor} is nothing but a fool, and all who oppose her are heroes”. If you say that, then, tell the whole truth, including the fact that we inherited an inefficient medical system from the Soviet Union. Without healthcare reform, we’ll have shabby hospitals and clinics, where people spoil their health being on queue, having a low level of medical care.
Anna Danilova
As it happens, media information campaigns hype only a few selected statements. If you set the agenda, what issues would you identify as the most paramount, which ones deserve media attention?
Fr Vsevolod
Everything is important! Often, non-political things, the problems faced by average people are more important than systemic global political issues. People don’t necessarily care for what excites the Orthodox intelligentsia, the RF Gosduma, or the UN General Assembly. People worry about different things, and all these things can speak to the various aspects of good and evil.
Anna Danilova
Can you formulate for us the tasks facing your department in the near future? In which case you will consider it successful? What can you, together with your colleagues, achieve?
Fr Vsevolod
Our work often relates to the legislative process, with negotiations with government and state agencies, preparing all sorts of activities. This takes most of my time, and I don’t think that it’s going to become easier in future. It involves difficult legal issues and intricate economic relations, and, in all these areas, the Church needs to speak confidently. However, if what you’re asking me is what is the most pressing task facing us, then, I hope that our society will undergo a transformation, that it’ll come to its senses, that it’ll return to a foundation based in a moral sense of life, in the moral law. What’s more, if we can somehow take a hand in the process, then, we’ll give thanks to God for it.
3 May 2011
Православие и мир (Pravoslavie i mir : Orthodoxy and the World)
http://www.pravmir.ru/vazhno-vse-prot-vsevolod-chaplin-o-diskussiyax-vokrug-dress-koda-nochnyx-klubov-i-pravoslavii-v-smi/
Editor’s Note:
It’s instructive for my American readers to throw off their parochial, narrow, limited, and emotional categories when dealing with European and Russian interlocutors. For instance, “liberal” in European/Russian usage denotes a non-traditional, pro-Free Market, no government regulation, “anything goes” ideology… that is, American “conservatism”, the ideology of the contemporary US Republican Party and the teabaggers. That is, most Americans are misled by their ignorant prejudices… as a result, they get things egregiously WRONG.
“Liberal” doesn’t mean Socialism, Social Democracy, or the Social Market… indeed, it stands for the very opposite cause. Damned if I know why Americans make such a knuckleheaded error… perhaps, it’s a function of intellectual isolation and mental laziness. How anyone could confuse the two is beyond me… you’d have to be totally bereft of knowledge of the outside world (alas… that’s all too true of too many Americans). When Vsevolod Anatolyevich condemns “liberalism”, he condemns the US Republican Party, “Free” Enterprise, Sectarian distortions of religion, and Rugged Individualism (what utter rot and blather). Don’t forget… Vsevolod Anatolyevich and Gennady Andreyevich are close colleagues. The Church and the Party are united (“Christ was the first communist”) against hedonistic Western Free Market Liberalism… do remember that Kishkovsky and Potapov don’t represent the mind of the Church… a certain RM would do well to bear that in mind (I can’t be too unkind to her… she’s a typical ignorant and incurious American dweeb… she only knows what the SVS lot feeds her).
Oh, yes… one last thing… until KMG’s Night of the Long Knives on 31 March 2009, Vsevolod Anatolyevich was part of the DECR… then, His Nibs hived off most of the department into two new offices headed by VAC and Archbishop Mark Golovkov… that’s something that SVS NEVER tells you! Don’t forget, VAC is His Nibs’ closest and most trusted confidant… SVS and its fellow travellers never tell you that one either. Christianity Today interviewed Alfeyev the Boy Blunder… al Jezeera interviewed VAC… that tells you something.
All in all, an interesting piece from the man closest to the throne at the Centre. It’s challenging “meat, indeed”, not childish and bland konvertsy pabulum…
BMD
Barbara-Marie Drezhlo
