“Greed is good”… that is why there are no elders in the West… only the empty can be filled.
Quite literally, we can call Tatiana Goricheva a missionary without borders. Thousands of people in dozens of countries around the world attend her lectures on Orthodoxy, Christians of various denominations, European politicians, public figures, and members of the scientific and cultural élite. The depth and sincerity of her testimony causes many to become interested in the Orthodox faith and culture. What is the contemporary Western world? What are its main challenges to Christianity? How can Orthodoxy respond to these challenges? We cover this, and more, is our conversation with Tatiana Mikhailovna.
Tatiana Goricheva
Orthodox philosopher, writer, and missionary. Born in 1947 in Leningrad. Baptised when she was 26-years-old. In the Soviet era, co-editor samizdat magazine “37”. In 1980, expelled from the USSR. For five years before returning to Russia, she lived in France. She studied at the Catholic Institute of St George (Frankfurt-am-Main, Germany), at St Sergius Orthodox Theological Institute in Paris, and attended lectures at the Sorbonne. Author of many books on Orthodox faith and culture. Regularly engaged in Russia and in Western countries to give lectures on Orthodoxy.
About Buying and Depression
Foma:
Tatiana Mikhailovna, for many years you lived and worked in the West, even now, you often go back and forth. What, in your opinion, are Christians in Europe most concerned about today, and, what, from their point of view, is the main problem in Western society?
Tatiana Goricheva:
I feel that most European Christians are concerned about the terrible peril of the consumer society, a culture permeated with hedonism and permissiveness. In principle, my experience of life in the West confirms such fears. Whilst living in Paris, I often saw French demonstrations. I remember one of them… a very large crowd. I wondered then, what they are fighting for? Probably for something beau monde, such as gay rights? But, no! It turned out that these people were demanding “purchasing power”. Can you imagine it? Anyone who doesn’t think of themselves as a consumer today is considered at least a little bit odd or eccentric, even an idiot. I have many friends and readers in the West. So, when they find out that I do not like to shop, they start to whisper and treat me with suspicion. Marx’s words on the motion in the direction of consumption have become a terrible prophecy. It’s all true. It is not only the initial accumulation of capital, it’s a limitless hedonism… buy, buy, buy!
Foma:
Why, in your view, is this culture of consumption so widely spread?
Tatiana Goricheva:
I think this is a consequence of the fatigue and depression of contemporary mankind. Look at the results of psychological research, almost 70 percent of all people are now in some stage of depression. This state does not depend on whether we are rich or poor or live in the East or the West. Although, of course, in the West the situation is much worse… I was always amazed at how people screamed in financial markets, screaming like lunatics, I could not understand this anger or rage. For them, all the time becomes concentrated at one point; all of their depression gets out in an instant. It turns out that they use purchase and consumption as an attempt to release themselves from depression, to hide from it (actually, in point of fact, from themselves) in the stores.
Foma:
The sphere of your intellectual interests includes psychoanalysis, a very popular phenomenon in the West, as they say, an ‘in-demand item’. Do you think that, today, Freud is able to help a person who is in such a severe depression?
Tatiana Goricheva:
First, I would like to remind you that Freud opened up nothing new in the study of man. For hundreds of years before him, all the Church Fathers described what he wrote in his research. Think of the Philokalia. The texts in this book probe a person’s inner being more deeply than psychoanalysis does. Let us remember Freud’s main thesis, “It” should be “I”. That is, he says that a person must bring the subconscious into the conscious mind. In this, we will agree, it’s very similar to the process of confession. In that, a person, with the aid of a priest, reflects upon their sins. Rather, to put it better, they contemplate upon their sinfulness in general.
Foma:
Nevertheless, was Freudianism improperly called the “Philokalia of our time?” All the same, confession in the Church and a session on the psychoanalyst’s couch are not the same.
Tatiana Goricheva:
Certainly. Here, we just come to the answer to your previous question, “Can psychoanalysis heal people?” Hardly. Psychoanalysis itself is in crisis, it is not able to respond to the challenges that confront contemporary people. After all, what is psychoanalysis? A man says that he’s sinful; let’s pull him out of his negative mood. However, it gives nothing in return! Maybe people get rid of a lot of evil, but they receive no grace. In the West, people can’t find meaning in their lives; they go like the walking wounded. It’s hard for me to describe it, they’re not schizophrenics, but, as it were, they’re disfigured cartoon characters. Psychoanalysis often leads a person to commit suicide because the minimalism and emptiness that these practices lead to is impossible to bear. Besides, the entire psychoanalysis industry is dependent on being fed money…
Foma:
You raised this topic in your speeches in the West?
Tatiana Goricheva:
Yes. Once, I spoke at a congress of psychotherapists in Basel. My audience there was, basically, unbelievers. I decided to make a report on eldership. I said that an elder was a man of quite unusual gifts, and, when you went to him, your knees would shake. You cannot leave the elder’s cell with darkness in your soul, the elder, in contrast to the psychoanalyst, does not need detailed stories about the man himself, he sees through everything because of his higher gifts and great experience. The elder acts both as a father, teaching you, and, at the same time, as a mother, tenderly comforting you. However, in Freudianism, and, more so, in psychoanalysis, there is nothing like this. It’s nothing but an absolute deep-freeze. The psychoanalyst puts us in the “superego”, i.e. the place of God.
Foma:
What was the reaction of the audience?
Tatiana Goricheva:
They took it incredibly well. Well, I would say, for them, the story of the elder was a revelation. After all, in Switzerland, it’s often the “fathers” themselves, that is, the clergy, who are often on the psychoanalyst’s couch. Clergy in the West are often very lonely and are depressed. Yes, the therapists were delighted with my presentation. But, then, they asked, “Do the Hasidim have eldership?” I said no, that’s not found in Hasidism, it’s not even close. They answered, “You’re telling fairy tales, there are no such elders”. If you don’t believe me, I say, go to Russia and see for yourself, “Come and see”. They asked me, again, “Why aren’t there any elders in Switzerland?” Because, I relied, you think don’t need them. You sit there fat and sassy, everything is fine, and you don’t need to change anything, so, you have no elders. As for us, we are not satisfied with ourselves; we are looking for someone who would help us change. After that, I started to receive many invitations to such congresses. However, I’m much more interested in doing things in Russia, it’s more important.
Foma:
Do Western academics freely speak about their faith?
Tatiana Goricheva:
It’s very rare to see any of them talk about their faith. The academic environment in Europe is very different from ours. Even if a person has a deep faith, he either will be silent about this, or, will offer excuses to others for their religious feeling. That is, the question of faith in Western intellectual circles is taboo. I know one person, a close friend of Claude Lévi-Strauss. He told me that like-minded people secretly meet together to talk about their faith. Can you imagine, meeting in secret, although they weren’t threatened? Of course, there are other examples. My good friend, the prominent and respected theologian Philippe Sers, a few years ago, at a Catholic activity at Notre-Dame de Paris, came to the podium and began speaking of Russian icons. He spoke of their beauty, goodness, and truth, which sègued into the New Martyrs, of holiness, that is, their faith… Everyone, including accidentally present tourists, listened with rapt attention. Later, Philippe defended his doctoral dissertation at the Sorbonne, and one elderly woman sobbed, and, then, told him that it was the first time in the last twenty years she had heard the word “God”…
Foma:
You said that, in the West, people listen with great interest to lectures about the Orthodox faith and culture. Can we say that the Western world now expects something else from Russia other than oil and gas?
Tatiana Goricheva:
I wouldn’t generalise, in different countries they react differently. Nevertheless, the expectations of which you speak, I notice them quite often. Sometimes, during my lecture tours in Europe, it seems to me that a conversation about faith is much more important and necessary for the people there than it is in our country. Of course, there’s an explanation. The inner lives of Western people are very bleak. They have many more single people than we do. I feel that the people there are even more in need, whether consciously or not, of what our faith and culture offers than we do. When I return home to Russia, sometimes it seems to me that I go back to kindergarten; there is so much laxity and carelessness in our lives! “Hey, guys, don’t you understand how much you’ve received? Poor baby! You’re so down… but in the West, people actually die, there is such longing, such horror and loneliness!” I don’t really want to talk about European expectations of us… What’s the point, if due to our own sloppiness, we lose our inheritance?
About Matroshki Dolls and Neurosis
Foma:
You studied the history and philosophy of Christianity for many years. How would you describe the stage in which the Orthodox Church exists in our country today?
Tatiana Goricheva:
In my opinion, the Lord has given believers in Russia a significant occasion. Today, we can freely witness to Christ, in our day, many people have the opportunity to hear the words of this testimony. The persecution of the church is behind us, no one hinders our ability to believe and live according to the faith. This is really God’s gift, and, now, as often as possible, we should recall the words of the Apostle St Paul, Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In everything, give thanks (I Thessalonians 5.16-18). The current time reminds me of the history of early Christianity, when the period of persecution and martyrdom ended, when theology began to flower in all its glory and a Christian understanding of human life and society arose.
I was pleased by the changes that occurred in 2009. Russia is very lucky to have Patriarch Kirill. He is the one who must lead the Church in such a difficult, difficult, and impossible time. He is pious, intelligent, and fearless. As he is the “one with the power”, he must face the most acute problems of our time. Experienced, cultured, tireless, and energetic, His Holiness has the competence to deal with the authorities of this world. Patriarch Kirill is, by nature, the unifier of all the Russias. Even I, who was accustomed in the West to everything, was surprised that the Patriarch wasn’t embarrassed and successfully preached in stadiums. A huge youth audience listened with care; his preaching wasn’t converted into a “show”. He touched every soul, won great respect from the crowd, and impressed the audience. The Church is in the world. It wears itself out going to the world. The Church goes to schools, institutes, the army, in orphanages, prisons, and rock concerts. The Church publishes magazines; it broadcasts bright and infectious programmes on television. This is a miracle. This is for the salvation of Russia and the whole world. The destructive, neurotic position of missiophobia presents itself in all its ugliness. They simply manifest their laziness, lack of culture, and irresponsible infantilism. I am against modernism, but an audacious co-creation of the Church is grounded in the humility, depth, and height of its great traditions, based on the blood of the New Martyrs. As the Tradition is always alive, Christians are always younger than all those around them.
Foma:
But, do not you think that our time of freedom, too, has serious dangers? After all, today, to call yourself “Orthodox” has become very easy and safe, and even in some sense fashionable. Judging by opinion polls, almost 80 percent of the population considers themselves Orthodox. However, only a few seem “enchurched”. Others also believe that Orthodoxy means long skirts for women, beards for men, and everything is miraculous. In the media, “Traditional Russian Orthodox Culture” often appears only in the form of kokoshniks, sarafans, and matroshki dolls …
Tatiana Goricheva:
Yes, there is a danger in distorted presentations about Orthodoxy; however, we must remember that the Russian culture is truly majestic. There are contemptible widespread stereotypes of Russian men with pickles and vodka, sarafans, and matroshki dolls, all of that is kitsch. Furthermore, the danger is not even that such kitsch leads to loss of taste, but the fact it destroys in the minds of the people the “great trinity” of beauty, goodness, and truth. However, the greatest value of all is Orthodoxy, on which all times have spoken in the Liturgy. An Orthodox man is “Homo Liturgicus”. Even if you don’t understand a word at the services in an Orthodox church, you still find yourself immersed in an ocean of beauty! In the West, in the homes of Catholics and Protestants, I often saw Russian icons of the Virgin Mary, the Trinity, and St Seraphim of Sarov. They appreciate their beauty very much. In Russia, this beauty is often overshadowed by media presentations, and the minds of many people are filled with superficial and false images. Perhaps, these images are enticing for some, but it is important to understand that kitsch, ultimately, is just a form of neurosis, where people seem to be thinking, but inside they have absolutely no love in their hearts, just cruelty.
Foma:
But, how do you resist this? I, as a high school teacher, often communicate with young people. For many of them this culture of kitsch, this replicated mass media, is almost a natural habitat. Should I start talking to them about some moral values, about faith? I’m afraid they will not understand what I’m telling you, and if they understand, this is unlikely to make them change…
Tatiana Goricheva:
I perfectly understand what you say. I remember when I was in Germany at a seminar with students of a religious school. They gave me two hours, and, of course, all this time I talked about the most important thing. Constantly, I heard giggling in the room directed at me… Under these giggles was a very embarrassing discomfort about my talk about the holy. Probably, there is no point in bothering people who can’t grasp your words, or have concluded that some “downer” is there to lecture them. Apparently, we should seek other forms of dialogue with young people. For example, I do so. I’ll take two or three people and go to Diveyevo Convent or the Optina Pustyn Monastery. In a couple of days, you see them changing before your eyes. The very atmosphere of these places itself causes one to live and feel differently. When I interviewed Cardinal Ratzinger, the future Pope of Rome, he said, “In Orthodoxy, I like the people the most, the people have a special atmosphere, a child-like light, a piety and reverence for holy things. When you get into this atmosphere, it is impossible to behave as before, you cannot be negligent”. I believe that this observation is very accurate. Furthermore, I am convinced that the most important thing for us today is to keep that atmosphere pure, to be worthy of what we were granted.
February 2010
Фома (Foma: Thomas)
As quoted in Interfax-Religion
http://www.interfax-religion.ru/?act=print&div=10937
Editor’s Note:
On the Interfax-Religion English site, only 177 words of this piece was translated, less than 10 percent of the total 2,700 words. I thought these dogsbodies had hit rock bottom, but I was wrong. There is wonderful material on the Russian side not being translated… and what is translated is often butchered, as this piece was. This gets a Double Order of the Big Green Weenie with Rhinestone Clusters and Road Apples… It’s so bad that in my paranoid moments I get the notion that there is a great conspiracy afoot… then, sanity kicks in. There’s never going to be a shortage of incompetents and boobs in the world… that’s the simple and true explanation. I need a good slug o’ something good…
BMD
Voices from Russia 
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